tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.comments2024-02-28T10:21:21.000+00:00visual-poeticsJuliahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comBlogger99125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-85596365389360639102018-03-12T13:39:18.874+00:002018-03-12T13:39:18.874+00:00Thank you!
Thank you!<br />Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-91304188860940967162018-03-11T16:33:51.948+00:002018-03-11T16:33:51.948+00:00Mmmm. Powerful!Mmmm. Powerful!MsJinniferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07819422542729470108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-65487813450209529822018-02-11T14:30:05.116+00:002018-02-11T14:30:05.116+00:00Yes I think you make a good point Ken - and actual...Yes I think you make a good point Ken - and actually quite a substantial proportion of the collection I am working on has already been published in journals (both print and online). Having deadlines from my publisher and from the Arts Council has galvanised me into making it collection shaped - which was when I realised that I have way too much work.<br /><br />Not sure about collections getting shorter - I think it depends on the press. Smaller presses tend to do shorter collections and that may be a cost of the print run issue - an extra five to ten pages does up the print cost quite a bit.<br />Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-82378471085423428242018-02-11T12:17:10.283+00:002018-02-11T12:17:10.283+00:00Hi Julia, just a thought - maybe it's about le...Hi Julia, just a thought - maybe it's about letting go of seeing everything as affiliated 'collections'/connections, and subbing some of the new stuff to magazines and comps to see what reception it gets in those places? It's all building the body of published stuff which feeds back into how seriously other publishers may consider your work, when perhaps you do have a third (and fourth, and fifth) collection ready?<br /><br />I've been irritated/bemused to discover that since sending a PDF of the typescript to the publisher of my first collection, ot seems to have released a fresh course of half a dozen-a dozen, even - new poems that I think are 'better', more interesting, more 'coherent' as a set. At first i was desperate to lever them into the finished manuscript, now I think I'll keep them for the next stage, and 'trial' them by sending to all the usual places. If they bomb, perhaps I've been wrong, and judged them in the adrenaline surge of 'finishing' what I had. If I'm right, I'll have a new direction to go for, and hopefully some validation for that view (in terms of acceptances/placings), along the way. I think, generally, collection are getting shorter - am I right?<br />Ken Evansnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-23743348608644320072018-01-20T19:51:41.140+00:002018-01-20T19:51:41.140+00:00Thanks Peter. I think you are right the media does...Thanks Peter. I think you are right the media does have a lot to answer for in terms of negative perceptions of what working class is. Some of this may stem from Thatcher's time when everyone was encouraged to be aspirational and better themselves (although these attitudes may go back as far as the industrial revolution - Dickens writes a lot about old money versus new money).<br />Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-42641553508547418782018-01-20T08:29:57.734+00:002018-01-20T08:29:57.734+00:00Great post Juila, and interesting comments from Ti...Great post Juila, and interesting comments from Tim and Stephen. I think in today's world where people are self-identifying, we can choose to say who or what we are (within reason of course - I'm thinking here of how ridiculous Piers Morgan was/is when talking with trans people). I identify as working class - I spent thirty years in Coventry, like you doing odd jobs and being on the dole - but I now have three degrees and live the type of life style others would consider as being middle class. But I ask myself why can't a working class person have a degree, go to the theatre, read books, or whatever else wider society deems as being a certain class activity? It is fine for academics and to a certain extent policy makers to stratify society, but the media and producers of art tend to have negative perceptions of what working class is when portraying them, which I think is a big problem. Thanks again Julia for an interesting post and i look forward to the poems you mention. Peter xPeterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02270372631797236081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-56184640179854772302018-01-19T18:51:50.798+00:002018-01-19T18:51:50.798+00:00I think we have just proved between us that class ...I think we have just proved between us that class is complex issue. Maybe it is a redundant term.<br />Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-4175069383597334562018-01-19T16:31:22.772+00:002018-01-19T16:31:22.772+00:00When I was born my parents were lodgers in a 2-up ...When I was born my parents were lodgers in a 2-up 2-down terrace house. I grew up as one of 4 kids in a 3 bedroomed council house. My father always worked in the dockyard. My mother never worked. So I can claim a working class upbringing. I went to UEA at 18. But now I must be middle class. Given that I work at Cambridge Univ, I might even be considered elitist. To add to my confusion my wife's Italian - we watch Italian TV most nights. Where do I belong? Dunno, but I don't feel that it's something I want to explore or get out of my system, or be threatened by. I just get on with things. Tutto fa brodo.Tim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-245291265613682542018-01-19T16:19:21.463+00:002018-01-19T16:19:21.463+00:00I have been thinking about this a lot recently too...I have been thinking about this a lot recently too... My upbringing was possibly lower than working class (let's pretend that's a thing :) ! )... we were extremely poor, we were homeless, we had to move due to defaulting payment on accommodation or just bad luck / circumstances. We rarely had enough to eat (My parents had 5 children including me), and household items I now take for granted were scarce. But I was very fortunate to have a good head on my shoulders, and fluked some good exam results! So I got into a lot of debt, I took (a lot) of help where I could and I worked my way through university, with basically no money... But I did it. I now have a very good job (Marketing Director) and am living an almost unimaginably different life. Does that make me no longer working class? I don't feel working class. But many of experiences are of being working class. I find it strange that people identify as working class writers, or maybe I would just feel slightly fraudulent to do that... I don't know... Not sure what my point is, except that I there are lots of working class people out there who probably just don't want to talk about there lives in that way - or would feel disingenuous to do so.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03184055210373944714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-51829854822292973752017-12-18T18:02:28.298+00:002017-12-18T18:02:28.298+00:00I don't think it's a matter of "putti...I don't think it's a matter of "putting" a poem in a strict form. Rather it's letting the idea of forms be in one's mind from the start in case it's needed. If form's an after-thought (all too common nowadays), it loses some potency.<br /><br />You're a bit of a rebel. You're not interested in fashion. You want to push yourself further. So try form! <br /><br />* "Personally I enjoy writing in a form first, then playing the same set of words through variations of different forms, lengthening the poem, shortening it, until it either 'clicks' into the right form (Robert Frost again), or decides that it wants to be 'free' verse. The move into free verse is always a pleasant surprise for a poem that has passed through so many cages and narrow ways. And such a poem bears the voice-print of strictness and discipline while also appearing to be merely spoken, inevitably, as if improvised on the spot. Your working must never show. Art must conceal art", David Morley<br /><br />* "Can form make the primary chaos ... articulate without depriving it of its capacious vitality, its generative power? Can form go even further than that and actually generate that potency, opening uncertainty to curiosity, incompleteness to speculation, and turning vastness into plentitude? In my opinion the answer is yes", Lyn HejinianTim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-4577038506625217222017-12-18T14:51:49.089+00:002017-12-18T14:51:49.089+00:00Hmm. I would not put in a poem in a strict form ju...Hmm. I would not put in a poem in a strict form just for the sake of it. My relation to form has often been one of resistance - probably because I have always been a bit of a rebel, and generally the poetry I like to read is free verse. However, occasionally I find that a form suggests itself while I am writing - it is certainly not that I set out thinking I want to write a [insert whatever form here] but rather that a form either lends itself to the subject matter or would enhance the content of the poem to make it more interesting or powerful. That said I currently don't have any formal poems in the rough draft of my next collection - although the specular I wrote last week will probably go in. <br /><br />I have similar relationship to rhyme and am not a fan of rhyming poetry that whacks you in the face with its rhymingness. I do think that there are ways of using repetition and rhyme that are not simply lazy - and when I say rhyme I mean it in the loosest sense. I have a poem that uses repetition in different ways to echo the monotony and painfully circuitous dysfunction of a family. It feels almost like it is in a form and sometimes people think it might be - but it deliberately isn't. It could have been tempting to go down that route and I think some one did suggest that when I workshopped it - but it felt too easy and, like you suggested, could have ended up looking trite. Being fashionable is not something I am interested in - what I am interested in is exploring the boundaries of my own writing, pushing myself further, and making my poems as good as they can be.<br />Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-50505429308323619932017-12-18T12:15:22.217+00:002017-12-18T12:15:22.217+00:00Some of my irrational objections to repetition are...Some of my irrational objections to repetition are that it's used by tricksters - salesmen/preachers/politicians/chanters, and that it's an easy way to continue a poem if you've run out of ideas - repeat and fade. <br /><br />The term "Form" can be used very loosely (e.g. "I'm using the thriller form", or "This is in the N+7 form"). Even sonnets, villanelles and sestinas come in many varieties nowadays, some almost unrecognisable. I've written about relaxed forms at http://litrefsarticles.blogspot.co.uk/2006/01/relaxed-forms.html - are relaxed acrostics as acceptable as relaxed sestinas?<br />I often wonder what Form is for. It can be a writing-aid, a prompt - the form conveying little meaning to the reader though useful to the poet as scaffolding. Using form mimetically (using a neat form to express neat thoughts - or using a tight form to "restrain" strong or chaotic emotion) can end up looking trite rather than organic. However, judging by the poetry collections I've recently read, it seems fashionable to thrown in a few formal poems, so you are trending in the right direction.Tim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-67209392782412648922017-09-24T14:22:42.312+01:002017-09-24T14:22:42.312+01:00To be fair mostly they are poetry books and they a...To be fair mostly they are poetry books and they are relatively quick to read.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-82238233607828053272017-09-23T21:28:46.231+01:002017-09-23T21:28:46.231+01:00Blimey, no wonder you don't have the the menta...Blimey, no wonder you don't have the the mental space to write at home - look how many books you've read: 161 in nine months! That's practically a full-time job!liz Barnardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11847277627746812041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-41552695719312365822017-09-22T15:07:32.115+01:002017-09-22T15:07:32.115+01:00Well yes - and that is material for a whole other ...Well yes - and that is material for a whole other blog post. My new collection is much grittier than my first and it is a worry. Will it be as good or better than the first. Will people who liked the first not like it because it isn't the same? etc. <br /><br />I think that the value of order is not to be underestimated though. You need your strongest poems first and last, but also the poems can work together and riff off of each other and that can make the reading experience more rewarding. <br /><br />Pascale Petit gave me some good advice which was that just because a poem has already been published doesn't mean it has to go in the collection. Sometimes published poems are not strong enough or just do not fit. I agree though, deciding what to leave out is the hardest part.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-68308941466787839652017-09-22T12:07:23.651+01:002017-09-22T12:07:23.651+01:00I'd say that ordering should be the least of y...I'd say that ordering should be the least of your concerns. There are far better ways to use your valuable time. Use "The Rattle Bag" or "The Zoo of the New" as models, or just go with your first attempt and let the editor tweak to their heart's content. Seeing old poems in new surroundings might help you see them afresh and modify them, though agonising over ordering could just be your subconscious's way of telling you that it's too early to send the manuscript off.<br /><br />Twist-or-stick seems to me a bigger concern. Do you continue the style(s) that made the 1st book succeed, or are you going to surprise people?<br /><br />"The trouble is that it is hard to always be objective about your own writing. ... The hardest part, for me, is deciding what to leave out" - Because I can't be objective about my writing, I fall back on the judgement of magazine editors, tending to leave out unpublished pieces. If a poem get published in a mag that publishes (say) 3% of submissions, the poem must be doing something right?<br />Tim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-90461642797976670562016-09-06T20:50:27.385+01:002016-09-06T20:50:27.385+01:00Thanks for that link Tim - a pretty good discussio...Thanks for that link Tim - a pretty good discussion of the subject! <br /><br />My son has similar approach to Pollock with his art - he thinks that giving his paintings titles doesn't allow people to view them objectively - titles influence how a viewer experiences the art.<br /><br />I get annoyed when people use gimmicky titles for poem - or use the best line as a title - it's a little like those trailers for films that show you all the best bits.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-78897695345695787312016-09-06T11:11:46.529+01:002016-09-06T11:11:46.529+01:00It seems a popular issue to worry about at the mom...It seems a popular issue to worry about at the moment. There's also http://artoffiction.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/what-are-your-poems-about.html<br /><br />I think my stuff is less and less about "something", though there are more identifiable things in them nowadays. As an analogy - Magritte's painting of a train clearly coming out of a fireplace isn't about trains. Much.<br /><br />And I'm more careful about titles nowadays, in case readers think that they provide the key to the subject matter. Here's another quote - in 1948 Pollock stopped giving his paintings titles, saying that "it would only confuse things"Tim Lovehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00578925224900533603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-66311182350867664992015-10-18T14:13:24.733+01:002015-10-18T14:13:24.733+01:00:):)Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-88814088449006538972015-10-04T13:44:46.310+01:002015-10-04T13:44:46.310+01:00I'm printing this out and re-writing it every ...I'm printing this out and re-writing it every day.<br /><br />Promise.<br />xxRoseshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07469442580348062913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-64383365270182674442015-09-28T15:29:19.375+01:002015-09-28T15:29:19.375+01:00I realise looking at this post now that the underw...I realise looking at this post now that the underwear itself might not actually have been torn but that it might have been the fragmentary nature of reflection making it appear torn. I love this about poetry that you can glean so many meanings from it on reading and re-reading.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-9581149735502753302015-09-10T18:39:50.743+01:002015-09-10T18:39:50.743+01:00Thanks for the positive feedback. I am glad you ar...Thanks for the positive feedback. I am glad you are submitting Elizabeth - keep it up.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-72417204941009160232015-09-09T22:31:31.799+01:002015-09-09T22:31:31.799+01:00Julia - you are so generous with time and advice, ...Julia - you are so generous with time and advice, posting poems and good things to think about. This is such sensible good advice. I read your earlier post which kicked me into making two submissions. I've lapsed again, but this helpful series of suggestions I will print out and keep to hand on my desk. Thank you.Elizabethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-11596783943936914512015-09-08T10:55:54.541+01:002015-09-08T10:55:54.541+01:00A very honest and constructive post, Julia. Thank ...A very honest and constructive post, Julia. Thank you. I use an electronic database for record keeping (Bento - may be just for Macs), but like any system, it is only as good as the person keeping it up to date! Caroline Gillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05203454486693014969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437685873398520198.post-383735522428367102015-07-08T16:06:33.532+01:002015-07-08T16:06:33.532+01:00Thanks for the link to that Tim. I have skimmed i...Thanks for the link to that Tim. I have skimmed it but will give it a more in depth read when I get time. I quite like the reader to bring some baggage to reading a poem - but wonder if too much can impede - for example - if your reader always assumes a blackbird before giving the poem a chance to reveal what the bird is they might miss some subtle clues as to the type of bird. I have noticed this in some of my classes - some people always assume a romantic relationship if there are two people in a poem - whereas others always assume a parent and child. I find it fascinating.Juliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06090382196937582571noreply@blogger.com